Catriona Matthew - Part 1 (The Early Years)

Music playing  00:00

Mike Gonzalez  00:15

Welcome to another edition of FORE the Good of the Game and Bruce Devlin, today we have our first lady guest from the home of golf.

Devlin, Bruce  00:23

Yes, a Scottish lass, not only from Scotland, but I think one of our younger ladies that we've had the great opportunity to talk about their life. This one particularly is a British Women's Open champion, has won 11 times as a professional, four  on the LPGA and she is both a Member and an Officer of the Order of the British Empire. And it is indeed a great pleasure to have with us today, Catriona Matthew, thanks for joining us. Catriona, we've looked forward to this. Thank you.

Matthew, Catriona  01:00

Thank you very much delighted to be a part of it today. I've listened to a few of them. So I'm looking forward to doing this.

Mike Gonzalez  01:07

Well, good. Always good that our guests know what these things are all about and have listened to a few. I think you'd mentioned to us before that you listen to maybe Laura Davies while you're picking your daughter up from a party.

Matthew, Catriona  01:19

Yeah, I listened to Laura and Meg actually, a couple of ones I've listened to. Yes. Yeah, well, good.

Mike Gonzalez  01:25

We've been looking forward to this for a while. And as you know, that if you've listened to any of these that we kind of go start to finish. And you know, to go back to the beginning. It's gonna be fun for Bruce and I because we've not had a guest on the ladies side that hails from Scotland. There's a lot of things we can talk about relative to Scottish golf, obviously, which we're both a big fan of, and born in Edinburgh home with a Tattoo and the Fringe Festival, among other things. Tell us about young life growing up in Scotland.

Matthew, Catriona  01:57

Yeah, I was born in Edinburgh, but always grew up in North Berwick. We were just born in Edinburgh because that's where the hospital was, but live kind of down on the coast in North America, which, you know, anyone who's a golfer, it's just, you know, kind of it's Golf Coast really, you've got you know, Muirfield, Gullen, North Berwick, you've got numerous courses there you can play and so I grew up, you know, here, two older brothers, and my mom and dad got me into golf and North Berwick, which has always been my home club. They have a little nine hole kids course it was called and they had that was where I started. Every hole is just a little par three. I think the longest hole was the first one I was playing it was about 140 yards. So I'd be out there swishing my driver trying to get the green and they ran during the summer holidays. They had little competitions for under 10 and under fourteens. So that was kind of how I got my got my start in golf. Just really played golf as a as a summer sport and that badminton and hockey in the winter so yeah, that was kind of I get into golf.

Devlin, Bruce  03:03

And that was field hockey, right? 

Matthew, Catriona  03:05

Yeah, field hockey. Yeah. Yeah, yes. Not much ice hockey here in Scotland.

Mike Gonzalez  03:11

Well, we've heard a lot of field hockey experience from some of our guests and of course that and other sports as you all recognize is pretty great in developing good hand eye coordination.

Matthew, Catriona  03:23

Yeah, I would always be a proponent. I think of doing lots of different sports growing up. I think sometimes kids nowadays perhaps just specialize a little bit too early and get too focused on one sport but yeah, I mean, as I say, I tried all different I was fortunate enough I managed to try all different sports was a real kind of tomboy and loved all the different sports and you know, badminton was probably actually my main sport until I was probably about 16 or 17. And always just played golf in the summer and gradually you know I got better and better at golf and you know, started winning things and that always once makes you want to go and play more so golf gradually took over.

Mike Gonzalez  04:03

Yeah, I don't know at what level your your competition was with badminton. But I remember my first exposure to really high level badminton. We went to the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, rolled into town had no tickets for anything. First thing we we could find tickets for was the mixed doubles Gold Medal Match badminton. It was South Korea against South Korea. Wow.

Matthew, Catriona  04:34

Yeah, it's a fast paced game. I played like under 16 for Scotland, but I was still I was I was last in the badminton team. But I was first in the golf team so I stopped to golf

Mike Gonzalez  04:46

So what was your first recollection of actually holding a golf club in your hand?

Matthew, Catriona  04:52

It would be playing on the you know the week course the kids course at North Berwick with my two older brothers probably annoying them and my dad so When we'd go along there with the dog and all kind of play around, and I remember I had, I had a little bag and a hat, I've still got the old putter, actually. And then I had I think a nine iron a seven hour and a five iron and probably a three word. And they were the clubs. I had a little bag and off I went.

Mike Gonzalez  05:18

And I suppose if you could, if one could handpick a Golf Course or a club to be a part of in your neck of the woods, that would be the one.

Matthew, Catriona  05:30

Yeah, I mean, I was lucky growing up in North Berwick and, yeah, we know, we're still still live in North Berwick live right on the Golf Course. So yeah, and we were lucky. There's not many places that have that facility for having just a little short kids course, which is a great place to learn the game on because to go straight out onto one of the the kind of full size Links courses is quite daunting. So you know, it's a great place to learn the game.

Mike Gonzalez  05:56

Yeah, and I'm speaking specifically of the West Links, the North Berwick West Links, which are the famous ones with all of the template holes that have been copied all over the world, including the famous Redan Hole. So it had to be a great, great place to grow up to learn the game.

Matthew, Catriona  06:13

Yes, I thought it was I mean, I played I was probably playing a lot of golf at North Berwick and Gullen, where the two courses I was members at growing up. You know, actually, I probably found North berwick the hardest one to score on I was for my handicap. I was always getting scores at Gullen. But North Berwick front I was just playing this morning and into that kind of West wind the first four holes are, are tough. You can just blow your score in the first four. 

Mike Gonzalez  06:38

No question. 

Matthew, Catriona  06:39

But yeah, I mean, I think I think growing up learning Links golf. You know, I suppose you you perhaps have a little more imagination, different kinds of shots, you've got to hit the ball, you know, lower different trajectories and different shots strain degrees, which I think probably probably helped me as I went on, to play to play professionally.

Devlin, Bruce  07:01

So Catriona, aside from the two brothers and dad. Was there any other person there that had influenced you in the early days of playing the game of golf?

Matthew, Catriona  07:13

It would have been Jimmy Hume who was the longtime pro at Gullen. He was probably my my first coach. So I remember going to Jimmy and you know, standing on the range there at Gullen in the in the winter in the cold weather and you know, that was before video and everything so he would just be get that left shoulder under your chin. And but yeah, he was he was my first coach and you know, I'd go along there in the summers and and play and you know, hang out in the pro shop and do you know change grips and do club repairs and things? So yeah, I spent probably most of my summers along there at gallon playing in that in the pro shop. Great.

Mike Gonzalez  07:50

I was I was gonna ask you on which side of this you were Gullen or Gillen?

Matthew, Catriona  07:56

I've always been a Gullen, but that's probably because my mom and dad said Gillen

Mike Gonzalez  08:02

A bit of a rebel huh? What's the what's what's the history with that? I mean, do you know in terms of the different pronunciations?

Matthew, Catriona  08:10

Here, it's depends which side of the street you live on there. Really? Yeah, so it's a real mix even locals, it's a mixture. There's no one way to say it.

Mike Gonzalez  08:23

So at what age were you your game sort of developing where you said, You know what, I think I can play this game.

Matthew, Catriona  08:32

Probably about 16 or 17. I remember playing in the Scottish Girls,  and I won it and you know, I then thought you know, this is I'm really not too bad at this game and started going and playing, you know, third or field and playing and kind of bigger events and different things and then progressed on to kind of the the Scottish Ladies and the British events and yeah, obviously, you know, did well on them and won quite a few of them. You know, I won the Scottish I think three times. So yeah, that was kind of when I went on to university. And then probably about halfway through university. I think I won the Scottish Amateur and the British Amateur and I think I won the Spanish and a few other amateur events that year. And then that was probably when I decided I was going to turn pro and you know, give it a go and see if I would make I just kind of felt if I didn't I would always regret never given again go and see testing myself against the best.

Mike Gonzalez  09:27

Why don't you sort of compare and contrast the you know what the U.S. equivalent of a high school experience in a university experience would be for you during those ages. What was available for women? A golf wise, obviously you came if you had been the U.S. it was after Title Nine which I'm sure you're quite familiar with. It's really opened up opportunities for at the high school and the college level. But what was it like with school teams on your side of the pond

Matthew, Catriona  09:56

High School, there weren't really golf teams that You know, the it was very much you just went and did it. You joined the local club and went and played. It wasn't really. It wasn't really a school sport school sports were, you know, hockey and rugby. Then at university, I was fortunate I went to Sterling University and they were the, I think it was Sterling and Loughborough were the first two universities in Britain to start sports scholarships. And I was one of the, probably one of the first on golf scholarship. And then I got a kind of R&A bursary golf scholarship. And that was one of the first, but they didn't really at that point, you didn't have a ladies golf team, there weren't enough of us there was maybe just three or four. So you'd play in the play in the men's team, sometimes, but But over the years, I mean, it's gradually, you know, got a lot better. And there's more University, more universities now we're offering, you know, the sports scholarships for men and women. Right, right. It's still nothing like the U.S. I mean, college sport in the U.S. is huge. It's still it's still nothing like that. I would say probably over here in Britain that the focus when you go to university is still more than studying rather than the sports. Yeah.

Devlin, Bruce  11:06

Which, which leads to an obvious question had had the been a point in your early career there were there was an opportunity to come to the U.S. to college or not.

Matthew, Catriona  11:18

Yet, I nearly went over for my probably third year, I got the chance to go over to the west coast to school, but decided I'd met my my husband so decided to stay in Scotland.

Devlin, Bruce  11:33

That'll do it.

Mike Gonzalez  11:34

Funny how that happens sometimes then that? Well, you mentioned at least one of your first forays into into junior golf winning the 1986 Scottish Girls Championship, but several other accomplishments, which I'm sure we're gonna get to the 88 and 89 Scottish Under 21 Strokeplay champion. You mentioned three-time winner of this Scottish Amateur Championship at least one course you mentioned the 94 win was at Gullen?

Matthew, Catriona  12:07

That's right. Yeah. Today I just I just met to the woman I played in the final actually she was playing behind me today. Small World, Valerie Melvin.

Mike Gonzalez  12:20

I'll be darned well, your your first one.

Matthew, Catriona  12:23

She should have beaten me to be honest.

Mike Gonzalez  12:25

Oh, really? Yeah. What was the format 18 holes stroke play, play 36 holes or

Matthew, Catriona  12:29

It was  36 hole-stroke play and then it went in the top 32 into match play.

Mike Gonzalez  12:35

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, your first when there was at Carnoustie in 1991 was

Devlin, Bruce  12:40

A little easy course.

Matthew, Catriona  12:42

I remember the first qualifying round there actually, I think that one stands out because the weather was so bad. I think I shot 79 In the first round. And it was the only person to break at make sense to me. It was always the third week in May that championship and that just seemed to attract bad weather.

Mike Gonzalez  13:00

Oh, well, you won it in 93 also kind of sandwiched in between Carnoustie and Gullen that one was at Prestwick, St. Nicholas, which I've not played that one.

Matthew, Catriona  13:12

Nice course don't kind of that Ayrshire way down near Troon and obviously the Old Prestwick but yeah, I mean, like so many of the Links courses here that there are great courses that just people haven't perhaps heard of. Yeah, sandwiched in between some of the better known ones.

Mike Gonzalez  13:27

And those are usually the most fun to play because as you said, not too many people flocked to them. And so

Matthew, Catriona  13:34

it's not Yeah, they don't get quite so busy perhaps in the summertime. Yeah, that's right.

Mike Gonzalez  13:40

British Amateur you mentioned winning in1993. That was at Lytham. And we'll hear a little bit more about Lytham later.

Matthew, Catriona  13:48

Yeah, yeah. I was fortunate to win there. And then won my British Open it led them as well. So yeah, obviously Lytham is one of my favorite courses.

Mike Gonzalez  13:58

You know, if it didn't have 757 bunkerson it maybe it'd be, that's a tough track.

Matthew, Catriona  14:06

You defintely got to keep out of the bunkers there. Yeah,

Mike Gonzalez  14:10

yeah. Well, we'll we'll talk more about Lytham. It's one of our favorite places. And then you were two-time winner of the St. Rule Trophy at St. Andrews played over I think the Old and the New course. Is that right?

Matthew, Catriona  14:22

Yeah, that's right. The Saturday you play. I think you play a round on the new and a round on the Old and then on the Sunday uou play around on the Old which is one of the few times it's open on a Sunday, I think is open for the St. Rule  then the men's version. And then when there's an Open Yeah, it's about the only times it's open on a Sunday.

Mike Gonzalez  14:45

Yeah, it's usually fun on a Sunday just to walk it sometimes your dog and just have the run of the place, right? 

Matthew, Catriona  14:52

That's right. 

Mike Gonzalez  14:52

Maybe you can give our listeners a little Scottish history lesson. When we talk about the St. Rule Trophy. Can you tell her listeners who St. Rule was?

Matthew, Catriona  15:02

Gosh, you're testing me now and I might fail on this little history lesson. I obviously I didn't do history at school.

Mike Gonzalez  15:11

That's right. It was like it was what accounting is?

Matthew, Catriona  15:16

Yeah. I'm floundering on that one. I'm afraid

Mike Gonzalez  15:19

I'm gonna jump in then Okay. 

Matthew, Catriona  15:21

Okay. 

Mike Gonzalez  15:22

St. Rule or known as St. Regulus was the monk from Greece back in the fourth century that fled Greece with the relics of St. Andrew. And came to St. Andrews what what became St Andrews Scotland,

Matthew, Catriona  15:40

Right because one of the clubs in St. Andrews's is St. Regulus.

Mike Gonzalez  15:43

Well, that's right. 

Matthew, Catriona  15:44

So there's your go, that's right.

Mike Gonzalez  15:45

There's two ladies golf clubs in St. Andrews. One is stSt. Rule and one is St. Regulus. I'm not sure it's an interchangeable name for that monk. But a little history lesson for our

Devlin, Bruce  15:56

History man.

Matthew, Catriona  15:58

Learnt something today.

Mike Gonzalez  16:00

There you go. Well, you won that one a 1993 and a 94. You won it by 10 shots.

Matthew, Catriona  16:08

Right? I don't remember that actually. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez  16:11

I don't know if they had scoreboards where he even knew how you stood coming in. But that would have been a nice walk down. 18

Matthew, Catriona  16:16

Yeah, I wouldn't have thought they had scoreboards, but I probably had an inkling that I perhaps had a lead there I would think. Yeah, I must have been quite a few ahead after perhaps 36

Mike Gonzalez  16:27

Yeah, probably. So tell us about the Vagliano Trophy competition.

Matthew, Catriona  16:34

Yeah, that's that's GB and I against the continent of Europe. So I'm actually played that in Venice of all places on the Lido. Yeah. Which was a nice Golf Course. Yeah. No, not a place that would you would think had no much many golf courses. But so that was a nice trip. You got some you got some nice trips as amateurs to go to some interesting places.

Mike Gonzalez  16:59

Well, that was that was a win for the GB and I team and yeah, played the 91 at Nairn, another great track up north, a little quirky, but I love it. And, and then 1993 not a bad venue either in France.

Matthew, Catriona  17:12

Oh, at Morfontaine. Yeah. That's one of my favorite. I've never played it since but that was one of my favorite golf courses. I think it played and they did the best hot chocolate in the clubhouse. It's amazing. The things you remember, isn't it?

Mike Gonzalez  17:28

Bruce, I don't know if you've played there. I have not. And it's certainly on my shortlist.

Devlin, Bruce  17:32

I know. But if it's got great hot chocolate, it's probably worth a trip sounds like to me.

Matthew, Catriona  17:37

It's lovely course. Right in the trees and really kind of old style it was it was a treat to play that one.

Mike Gonzalez  17:43

Yeah. So pretty stellar Junior amateur career leading up to a time where now? You know, I'll step back a little bit because you really started your Curtis Cup experience back in 1990. So tell us a little bit about how your game stood coming into 90 the process for getting considered for that team? And what what that meant for your golf career?

Matthew, Catriona  18:08

Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, growing up in Britain, that Curtis Cup was the pinnacle event you wanted to get in, you know, that's the GB and I against the U.S., for amateur women. And that was the that was the event that every kind of amateur wanted to get in. So you had managed to make the team in 1990, perhaps slightly surprise, addition to think actually playing the Curtis Cup before I played for the Scottish women's team. So yeah, but I think we went there. And we had quite a young team. And I think we were all and at that point in the night, early 90s. There weren't many of us who had ever gone been in the States or hadn't gone to college in the States. And I think we all went over there. And we're just slightly kind of overall didn't overcome. And I think the U.S. had some big names. They had Vicki Goetz, who had been, you know, as the star player and Brandie Burton. So they had a lot of good players in their side. And they well and truly thumped us there at Somerset Hills.

Mike Gonzalez  19:07

I can just imagine what the culture shock must have been like just coming to New Jersey at that early an age.

Matthew, Catriona  19:14

Yeah, and the heat and the humidity. Yeah, as I say, I think nowadays, the players are far better prepared. And, you know, they've probably been over in the states more. And they've I mean, I think at that point in most of our team had probably never played outside, you know, kind of Britain and maybe they'll kind of foray into Europe. But But yeah, so it was certainly an eye opener for us all.

Mike Gonzalez  19:35

Yeah, well, you were much more comfortable than next to playing in the Curtis Cup. This was of course inaugurated at Wentworth way back in 1932. Harriet and Margaret Curtis from the U.S. were instrumental in getting some of that going. And so your second Curtis Cup. You're coming to Hoylake, more home ground, I guess for you.

Matthew, Catriona  19:58

Yeah. And we're actually having a reunion with that team this November. We're going down and playing a match against Hoylake. So I think everyone can make it from what I've heard. So that'll be good fun. But yeah, we went to Hoylake and I think we managed to beat them there. We were a little more experienced and knew what to expect. So yeah, we, and probably the conditions in the course as well suited us better there.

Mike Gonzalez  20:22

Well, and for our listeners who are listening to this 50 years on, it's probably important to say that Hoylake just hosted the 2023 Open Championship won by Brian Harmon, who was sort of a unexpected winner, but what a fine champion and what what guts he showed coming down the stretch there.

Matthew, Catriona  20:41

Yeah, he played fantastically well, didn't they? No one else really got close to him at all. They were all kind of you know, struggling a little bit. It was kind of testing conditions. But you know, he played he just outplayed everyone else.

Mike Gonzalez  20:55

Sure did. So the third Curtis Cup opportunity came in 1994. So you'd come back to the States to the Honors Course down in Tennessee. And you guys held your own didn't Yeah.

Matthew, Catriona  21:07

Yeah. I think we managed to get a half there. So we retained the trophy. So yeah, I remember I was saying Carol Semple was there with a lot of Janice Moodie, a  fellow Scott and I think I played with Janice had two or three Scots in the team. So that was a nice one. I think I played maybe Wendy Ward. I always seem to play against Wendy Ward, and then even went on to player in the Solheim Cup as well. I think she was fed up of having to play me.

Mike Gonzalez  21:32

Well, as you know, with the ties, all that matters is who's plane does the cup travel on? 

Matthew, Catriona  21:38

That's right. Right. 

Mike Gonzalez  21:40

So you brought it home. So we're now 1994. You are 25 ish, I guess by this time. Two years removed from your accountancy studies at University of Stirling, and what's happening in your life with your golf, and what your future might be?

Matthew, Catriona  22:04

Yeah, I've got married and started that year of 94. And then obviously played that Curtis Cup and then turned pro just after it and went to Q School down in Florida did my first stage at the Plantation Course. I think my mom came out actually. And she kind of halfway it was the most bizarre thing. You could have a caddy, but you got carts, but you could have a caddy, but you the caddy and the player can be in the cart at the same time. So she was so terrified of making a mistake that she said, I'll just walk the hallway. So yeah, got through that one and then went on to the final stage at daytona. Were actually had a really good it was a funny story. Actually. I had a guy, Chuck Moore, who actually very sadly just passed away. He was a longtime caddy on the PGA Tour. And I think back in the mid 80s, he was gonna be caddying, I think it was Larry Mize, he was carrying four and he was over at the Open at Muirfield and he had nowhere to stay. And he ended up someone said, oh, you know, the Lambert's might have a room for someone. So he just came and knocked on our door and ended up coming in and staying the week with us. And then he always came back in for a week usually before the men's Open and stayed and played some golf with us. So he came down and caddied for me at the final Q School.

Mike Gonzalez  23:20

Ah, okay. All right.

Matthew, Catriona  23:23

So that was good.

Mike Gonzalez  23:24

Before we launch into your professional career, I guess. It would be fun to just talk a little bit about golf in Scotland beyond what we've talked about, because there's some fantastic venues and I'm sure you're quite proud of, of what you've got to offer the rest of the world with with golf in Scotland. Tell us about what we'll leave East Lothian for for last because you've probably partial to that region. But what are some of your favorite regions and golf courses as we spin around Scotland?

Matthew, Catriona  23:54

Oh, got a really tricky one that you know, I'd love to you know, to be fair, you know, you probably find a lot of people played more golf in Scotland than me. I tended to go to the courses for the amateur tournaments were on so I got all of those ones and then once I turned pro to be fair, I when I came home I didn't play a huge amount of golf but of the ones I've been to you know, I love always love St. Andrews. I mean, I think from the days of the st. Rule that's always been one of my favorite golf courses. Just the whole history. The whole atmosphere of teeing off the first and coming down the last couple of holes and so love that one and then I think Ladybank over in Fife is another nice one, Lundin Links. Nice and that good one I like and then if you go through,

Mike Gonzalez  24:42

have you played Dumbarnie if we kind of stick down in that region?

Matthew, Catriona  24:46

I haven't actually no, I've been there, but I've never played it. That's just a fairly new course. In fact, I'm probably looking straight at Dumbarnie right now. My window. We're just right opposite there. So

Mike Gonzalez  24:57

I'm jealous. Yeah. How about have you played Bruce Devlin's course in St. Andrews. 

Matthew, Catriona  25:03

No, which one is that?

Mike Gonzalez  25:04

She's got that puzzled look in her eye.

Matthew, Catriona  25:06

Yeah, yeah, perhaps not. Which one are you?

Mike Gonzalez  25:11

Unknowingly,  you, perhaps did down at the Fairmont and the

Devlin, Bruce  25:15

Fairmont Hotel, there are two courses there.

Matthew, Catriona  25:17

You know I did an outing I did an outing there and just played a part three quite a few times. Did you ever actually played the whole Golf Course I think we were meant to play the whole course. And then the weather was so bad that they reduced they kind of did a different format. But yeah, one time I'll get over there. Yeah, I think it snaps everyone thinks we're so close. Right? I think it's we're so close here but we're but then we go up to Edinburgh and then over the bridge, you've got to go all the way down the other side.

Mike Gonzalez  25:47

Does anybody ever take a ferry across or is it just as easy just to drive around?

Matthew, Catriona  25:50

You can get in the summer they do a ferry from North Berwick to Anstruther.

Mike Gonzalez  25:57

Anstruther. Yeah, okay. All right, 

Matthew, Catriona  25:59

But it's quite tidal you've got you've got to kind of judge your when you're going. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez  26:04

Let's go up to the Highlands. How much golf have you played up there?

Matthew, Catriona  26:07

Yeah, you know, played probably quite a bit out there Nairn, Loussiemouth,  you know, Royal Aberdeen, Murcar. All, nice. Yeah. Dornoch I really enjoyed actually just played that recently, actually, for the first time and Castle Stewart. So Inverness, played the Inverness course, it's a nice one down at the river. But yeah, there's some nice courses up there as well. I think Nairn and Loussiemouth is probably one of my favorites up there.

Mike Gonzalez  26:35

Yeah. There are some quirky golf courses up there that are quite fun to play. Have you played Brora or Golspie up there. 

Matthew, Catriona  26:42

No I haven't No, no.

Mike Gonzalez  26:44

All right, well, let's take our listeners down to Ayrshire it's one of my favorite places. Yep. Beyond Dundonald, which we talked about earlier talk about some of the golf in Ayrshire.

Matthew, Catriona  26:54

Dundonald, obviously played most of the ones at Troon. Obviously Royal Troon, Portland and then there's a couple of other ones there. Prestwick St. Nicholas, obviously played there. Turnberry been down to there I've not played it since the new changes actually which are meant to be good, but I mean, there are there Barassie another nice one in that area.

Mike Gonzalez  27:16

Yeah, Western Gailes. Have you played that since they've re-done it?

Matthew, Catriona  27:20

No, I haven't. I haven't played Western Gailes or Prestwick or Glasgow Gailes.

Mike Gonzalez  27:25

Have you not played old Prestwick?

Matthew, Catriona  27:27

I haven't. Nope. 

Mike Gonzalez  27:29

Oh, shame on you. Shame on you. Let's get that done. Let's get that done sometime. What a special place. 

Matthew, Catriona  27:37

Yeah, yeah. 

Mike Gonzalez  27:39

And not just for the golf I think just for the whole experience, you know? Okay, what did I miss?

Matthew, Catriona  27:46

Down in the West Coast? I don't know if you missed any down there did you?

Mike Gonzalez  27:49

Well, yeah. There's I mean, there's well, there's a couple of others. But you hit the highlights for sure.

Matthew, Catriona  27:55

Yeah. Yeah. They tend to be the ones I've played to be fair.

Mike Gonzalez  28:00

Have you ever been out way out to do you know, Machrihanish

Matthew, Catriona  28:03

I've done Machrihanish but I haven't been to any of the kind of new ones on the islands as yet. You know, Ardfin or the Machrie. Which get great reviews actually but I've not made out to them.

Mike Gonzalez  28:17

Not since they redid the hotel and everything else. Let's go to East Lothian because pound for pound, maybe one of the best golf regions in the world.

Matthew, Catriona  28:30

Yeah, I mean, you could put started, you've got Craigielaw, and then you can just really go from one to the next Craigielaw, Kilspindie, Luffness, Gullen, you know, Muirfield. Now you've got obviously Renaissance, Archerfield the new ones. Then you've got the two in North Berwick, the West and The Glen and then down to Dunbar. So yeah, you really do you really are spoilt for choice here.

Mike Gonzalez  28:55

I came away from our play at what I would call the East Links. The Glen. Yeah. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, if we were to give Catriona Matthew or Bruce Devlin half a million pounds, this place could be really, really special!

Matthew, Catriona  29:16

It's lovely right up on the cliffs actually complete is not really Links turf, though is very strange for being right on the water. It's more an inland type of turf, but I always loved playing off the 18th hole there right from the elevated tee. Then you get up as a locals would say Cardiac Hill going up the first

Devlin, Bruce  29:36

You will get the same feeling when you play my course in Scotland too Catriona you know, it's right on the ocean. So there's, you know, it's not really a Links course at all.

Matthew, Catriona  29:48

It's strange that it's right there on the water, but it's a completely different turf from just a mile away for the other course

Mike Gonzalez  29:55

it is it's generally soft spongy, isn't it? Just nothing like typical Links land but I was just blown away at the topography and the the potential

Matthew, Catriona  30:07

yeah you get lovely views there right to the Bass Rock from the Glen.

Mike Gonzalez  30:11

So other than let's say the West Links in North Berwick, what would you point to is your top three in East Lothian

Matthew, Catriona  30:21

Top three you know I always like Gullen,  Gullen One I like. I mean, it's hard to go past Muirfield you know, I haven't played a ton but played it. Obviously we had the the Women's British Open there just last year so played it there. You know, it's a it's a great Golf Course with you know, every hole kind of goes a different way in the wind kind of affects you all different ways. And then I would say, you know, perhaps Dunbar, you know is a good course right out in the water and you get every every kind of element hits you when you play that Golf Course.

Mike Gonzalez  30:59

I'm jealous, as I told you before, when we tested our little audio, I'm just jealous of the opportunity you've got with the golf you've got because you can park yourself in North Berwick, and you've got a 10 or 15 minute drive either direction, and you've got some fine, fine golf.

Matthew, Catriona  31:17

Yeah, I think it's like anything when you live there, you It's you kind of take it all for granted.

Mike Gonzalez  31:24

Well, let's talk about the decision process uou and perhaps your husband and family were going through in saying, hey, I want to do this for a living.

Matthew, Catriona  31:34

Yeah, I mean, I decided probably halfway through university, I was going to turn pro. So I knew I was going to play that Curtis Cup in 94. And then turn professional after it. I do remember my dad, because they had my mom dad came over to watch. And then we went on to the U.S. Amateur. My Dad said, are you sure?. Are you sure? You really want to do it? But yeah, so I had decided then so you know, sent off my papers into into Q School. And off I went and I think it was about the end of August, we went down to that first Q School. So when I think at the time, though, back then what the mid 90s. There was very little golf, there wasn't Internet, and there was very little golf on television. Certainly ladies golf over in the UK. So I think that actually helped me go into Q School because I didn't realize what a big deal it was getting through and what I'd be missing if I hadn't got through. You know, I hadn't I didn't appreciate how big the LPGA was. So I think in a strange sort of way that helped me. Obviously, I'd heard of Laura, you know, I think she had won the U.S. Open by then. So when we really got very little ladies golf over here. So, you know, I'd heard of maybe, Nancy Lopez. But that was really about it. So I think that really helped me because I didn't know. And I hadn't really played much in Europe. I played a couple of events before I went out to Q School. And then went out there and was a you know, fortunate enough to get through on my my first attempt.

Mike Gonzalez  33:03

So what happened then did you sort of pack up your worldly belongings and head to the United States?

Matthew, Catriona  33:09

Pretty much yeah because at that point in the, you know, mid 90's , 90% of the LPGA Tour was in the U.S., you know, you could drive you know, right up the East Coast was kind of your whole kind of spring and early summer kind of thing. So we went over and you'd go over for probably six months. And I remember I had a good friend, Katherine Emery who turned pro a couple of years before me so I traveled with her for the first kind of year and then my husband, he qualified as a CPA. And then when he qualified he quit and then came out and caddied for me. So then we traveled together.

Devlin, Bruce  33:49

So your first victory. Tell us where that came from.

Matthew, Catriona  33:53

My first victory was in Hawaii,  the Cup Noodles Hawaiian Open, on the LPGA my first professional win was down in Australia at Yarra Yarra in Melbourne. Yeah, so yeah, that was I always love going down there. They had the events down there in kind of November, December, and I loved going down there and playing we got to play some great golf courses. And I remember it was, I think, Liselotte Neumann and I think Laura were up there. And I managed to hold them off and got my first victory down there. In Melbourne.

Devlin, Bruce  34:30

You beat a very, very special lady that we just talked to the other day there. You won that tournament by three shots over Karrie Webb.

Matthew, Catriona  34:39

Right. Yeah. She would just be a real youngster then.

Devlin, Bruce  34:42

 That's right she was.

Matthew, Catriona  34:44

Yeah, yeah.

Devlin, Bruce  34:46

What a career!

Matthew, Catriona  34:47

What a career she had. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez  34:50

Well, Bruce, you know a little something about that Yarra Yarra Golf Course that Katrina picked up her first professional win at?

Devlin, Bruce  34:57

I do and I was going to well, you Guys, we're talking about all those wonderful areas of playing golf. I was gonna say dammit your need to go to Melbourne and go down to the east of Melbourne. You can park yourself in a little motel and play a different Golf Course every day for a month. And never drive more than 15 miles now. Come on.

Matthew, Catriona  35:18

Yeah, there's some great courses in there as well. Yeah, that's probably one of my favorite places to go to play golf outside of, you know, Scotland. Yeah, all those seaside they're just so many and even down to those 13 Beach and all those kind of newer ones down there.

Devlin, Bruce  35:34

Yeah. Anyhow, yeah, I do know a little bit about Yarra Yarra. I had a little victory there beating Lee Trevino in a playoff. So that' has fond memories for me too. It's a great golf course.

Matthew, Catriona  35:45

It's amazing how you always like the courses when you win on them don't you?

Devlin, Bruce  35:48

Yeah of course you do.

Mike Gonzalez  35:53

So how special was that first win just give our listeners a feel of how important that is to? 

Matthew, Catriona  36:00

Yeah, I think your first win is very special, because I think it kind of, in a way validates that you think you've made the right decision. You know, you've you've made that right decision and turning pro and you know, you're good enough. You know it, you're at my best to beat the best players in the world at the time, because, as you see, it had a great field that that those years we went down to play. So I think it just gives you that little bit of confidence to go on. Because I think when you turn pro you there always are, I suppose their doubts in the back of your mind? Have you done the right thing? Are you going to be good enough? You know, can you can your game go to that next level. So I think when you get that first victory, it just gives you that added bit of confidence. And you just feel that little bit more special when you go to the range next week and you're practicing you know, you've you've had a victory

Devlin, Bruce  36:48

So then your validation then came at the McDonald's WPGA Championship at Gleneagles. Right you boy, yeah, that's right. We beat a couple of good players there Helen Alfredsson by five and Laura

Matthew, Catriona  36:59

Laura Davies. That's right. And at that point, they were the, you know, the top European players, probably still a little bit in awe of them didn't really know them very well. So, you know, and I think on home soil, it's, it's, well, I find it harder to win in a way and in Scotland, because you're, you know, I think you're you're wanting so much to play well in front of your home fans, because, you know, I didn't get a chance that often to play in Scotland as a professional. So I think sometimes you nearly put too much pressure on yourself and try too hard. So but that was a nice little victory to come away with there. And that was, you're still allowed to bet then. And I think my husband and Katie had put a bet on me. That's one of the caddies would come up saying oh look, they've got you at ridiculous odds here. So you couldn't do that now but back then you could.

Mike Gonzalez  37:54

I assume it wasn't life changing winnings?

Matthew, Catriona  37:57

Oh, no, no.

Mike Gonzalez  38:00

Well, but you know, you mentioned and others have to before you this, this, you know, this sort of self doubt that it's natural. As a young, professional about your decision, everything else, you get that first win. But it's still important to demonstrate to people that that wasn't a fluke. Yeah.

Matthew, Catriona  38:15

Yeah, I think yeah, to come out with your second one. I mean, I think not that anyone can win once, but I think to win twice, definitely. And again, against a good field and good competition. And I think it's more the, the validation to your peers. I think that, you know, they know, you know, this player is really quite good. It wasn't just wasn't just a fluke there. So a one hit wonder type thing. But yeah, so I think anytime to get your get your second win is special, and especially against a good field and good players.

Mike Gonzalez  38:49

So now we've come to that one you alluded to, which is your first LPGA win. And that was at the 2001 Cup Noodles Hawaiian Ladies Open. And that was in Oahu who by three over another Hall of Famer

Matthew, Catriona  39:03

Annika Sorenstam Yeah,

Devlin, Bruce  39:05

Talk about beating some great players!

Matthew, Catriona  39:06

I got luck a few times.

Mike Gonzalez  39:10

I don't know about that. What's your memory about that.

Matthew, Catriona  39:14

My one memory of about that one was I hadn't been putting very well. And I decided that week to go left hand low. Try that. And it worked that week. I'm not putting lefthand low now, but it worked that week. 

Mike Gonzalez  39:27

Interesting. We just heard that from Karrie Webb last week I think.

Matthew, Catriona  39:31

Yeah, I think you know, putting was always one of my things. I like any golfer I suppose you always think you should have holed more than you do. So I would I didn't really think or much with my other clubs, but I'd always be tinkering with my putter. I was never one of these players. So I've used this putter for 20 years. I would chop and change. I think I used every type of putter you've had I've used a blade. I've used a mallet I've used to kind of Ping Answer type. So I've tried everything.

Devlin, Bruce  40:01

We all know that that's a psychology part of the game though that putting, you've talked about the brain getting worked over with a putter, that's it.

Matthew, Catriona  40:11

Yeah, I think all of professional golf is in the brain, isn't it?

Mike Gonzalez  40:15

Yeah. Yeah. So that particular change caused by what fell off the face getting it down your line results? Well,

Matthew, Catriona  40:25

I think it's because I've always had a tendency to aim a little bit right with my parts. And I think it helped get my left shoulder a little bit lower. And maybe just got me a little bit straighter. My fault my putting is always I tend to aim a little right and pull them a little bit. So I think going that little bit left hand lower, just got my shoulders a little bit more level. And it worked, worked for a few weeks.

Mike Gonzalez  40:50

I just love hearing these stories about, you know, amazing things about my own personal history, having gone to the long putter 30 years ago, trying every method known to man.

Matthew, Catriona  41:02

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's one of these. Because putting so individual it's all feel it's all feeling piece, isn't it? So it's wherever just feels good at the time, isn't it? Well, that's why I've kind of, I mean, some people, I think, perhaps if you're a great putter, you always just lead what would Jane crafter was always when I watched, she was always a great putter probably sticks to the same, the same method in the same putter. But for me, I was always one for changing.

Mike Gonzalez  41:31

Well, we I guess we're before we get to your next LPGA victory, just curious as to how you decided to sort of manage your year in golf, because you obviously had opportunities on the ladies tour in Europe, opportunities in America, perhaps down the southeast part of the world as well. How did you sort of manage your time coming in this timeframe?

Matthew, Catriona  41:55

When I first started playing, you know, my main focus was on the LPGA. And, you know, keeping my card and that was kind of the main focus. I think there was probably Laura, and maybe Trish Johnson were the only two, you know, that kind of, I mean, look, how Laura did that I don't know, over all these years playing so well, on both tours, you know, going backwards and forwards. I mean, I think you had to be an exceptional player to have to be able to do that. So I my certainly my first probably 10, 15 years, I focused much more on the on the LPGA. And I'd go back and play, you know, a few events in the summer and in Europe. And then I always liked going down to Australia in the winter. So at that point, the the LPGA was very much us. As I said it was that night, I think they had that just about basically everything in the U.S. And then they had a couple in Japan towards the end of the year. And then they took on the British became a major and part of the LPGA too. But yeah, we would just get in a car and jump up and down and you know, drive up all that East Coast. I think we've been to 40 of the states over the years so covered most of it.

Mike Gonzalez  43:09

So you are far too young to have played the small ball in competition what we came to know as the British Ball. But yeah, I'm sure during your playing time, you've seen a lot of change of the golf ball and other equipment. Tell us what was going on sort of back in your early days on the tour. Were there any transformational changes happening with the drivers or hybrids or anything like that,

Matthew, Catriona  43:34

I suppose the biggest change was going on was the I mean obviously I didn't use persimmon on tour but the driver clubheads were just getting bigger and bigger. And I suppose easier to hit I think for for the ladies game I would say the biggest change in innovation and help were the hybrids because I think you know the women that we just don't have that for the long arms we don't have the club head speed to hit down and get enough you know, club head speed to then get the ball in the air. So it was always a struggle with the long irons. So the I think that the hybrids have been the biggest the biggest help probably to the women's game. I mean, I think women generally will hit it straighter probably because we're not swinging it quite as hard and because we have to hit it straighter because we don't have the strength to get it out the bad lies in the rough so but I would say the the hybrids probably was over the years was the the thing that probably made the biggest change. You can get that high softer flight into into par threes or into long par fours. And then it was just that little bit easier to get through. You know what kind of gnarly love lie in the rough.

Devlin, Bruce  44:44

How about the golf ball? Have you noticed any change?

Matthew, Catriona  44:49

I mean, obviously, you know when I first started it was the lattice so you'd be changing ball all the time. And now you know the balls are I think it's definitely more difficult to shape the ball perhaps whether that's the bit of the golf ball or a bit of the clubs. But yeah, I mean, I think generally, obviously equipment is better and the golf balls better which helps. I mean, I'm probably hitting it still now much the same distance I did when I first when I first turned pro, which seems crazy, but I mean, obviously the top players now were longer than me than they were but I think that's to be fair, a combination of golf ball equipment. The players are, you know, look after themselves better fitness strength work nutrition, is it you can't just pin it on one thing. I think it's a little combination of everything.

Mike Gonzalez  45:45

Traditionally, were you an early adopter of the new technologies that came along? Did you tend to lag behind the pack a little bit

Matthew, Catriona  45:54

I was always willing to try things. Yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, I would always try try different things. I mean, my irons I tended to I could use for three or four years and then change but yeah, I did. I did. Like I didn't always change but I tried them.

Mike Gonzalez  46:09

Thank you for listening to another episode of Fore the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word and tell your friends. Until we tee it up again, FORE the Good of the Game, so long, everybody.

Music playing  46:29