Bernhard Langer - Part 5 (Later Ryder Cups and Being Captain)

Music playing  00:00

Mike Gonzalez  00:16

You know, if you go back to that second Ryder Cup that you mentioned, which was contested at PGA National, I guess they called the Champ Course back then I think, but that was the first year that Tony Jacklin was the Captain of course he captained four straight Ryder Cup teams and I remember Bruce talking to Tony about, you know what was going on back in that day. And he sort of described it as, hey, we were kind of competing with one hand tied behind our back because we looked at the way the Americans traveled, the way they ate, the accommodations they had, the team rooms they had, we had none of that you know, the attire the whole thing. And so I'm sure you can remember this Bernhard. But other than Tony Jacklin, who were the guys behind the scenes that really tried to help you guys take it up to another level to let you compete at the level of the Americans?

Langer, Bernhard  01:13

Well, Tony was very instrumental in changing all that, that you just mentioned, you know, he said, if we go to America, we're going to fly on the Concorde, we're going to arrive in style. We're going to be dressed like professional golfers, who are the best, not just second class citizens. We're going to have the best candidates we can have. We're going to eat good food and stay in nice hotels. And all that changed when the tour got a say so about the money that was made in the Ryder Cup. And it didn't all go to the British PGA anymore, because now we had funds to pay for that kind of stuff. To make us feel like we're worthy opponents, not just on the Golf Course. But you need to feel like it. You need to be dressed like and you need to, you know, feel like yes, I belong here. And all that. And Tony was very instrumental in that. Obviously, there were many others that came behind him who continued what he started, but I believe it was Tony, that really changed a lot of things in that regard. And, the players picked up on that and appreciated what he did. He set the tone, and then we took it and ran with it.

Mike Gonzalez  02:36

For all intents and purposes, I think you'd look back at 1983 and say, You know what, that was a win for Europe.

Langer, Bernhard  02:45

Yeah, we just felt, as I said, we felt like we lost, but we felt we were so close, that sooner or later it's going to happen. As we develop. Golf became a bigger game in Europe. There were more and more youngsters coming up. Some of our problem was always we couldn't field 12 good players. We had five or six or eight but not 12. And that changed in the 1980s. You know, we had more depth. Now we could field two teams, we have enough players that, you know, but that wasn't the case in the 1970s and early 1980s. And so all of those things, were very instrumental of Europe becoming very competitive and even dominating for a number of years in the Ryder Cup.

Mike Gonzalez  03:36

So you go on to the next one, you go to the Belfry and of course you win. And that just sort of changed everything, I think in a lot of people's minds. And to answer your question, it was 1957 was the last time that the GB&I team had won.

Langer, Bernhard  03:52

Wow, that tells you tells you how long ago that was. But you know, the big turnaround I thought, obviously was the win at Belfry in 1985 but then going back to America and 87 and we're going to Muirfield, going to Ohio, Jack Nicklaus', hometown where the Americans played the Memorial Tournament year after year. They knew the Golf Course and we didn't, because we didn't get invited to play there. And we beat the U.S. team on their home soil for the very first time in forever. 

Mike Gonzalez  04:29

Forever. 

Langer, Bernhard  04:29

In Jack Nicklaus' back yard 

Mike Gonzalez  04:32

With him as the captain. 

Devlin, Bruce  04:33

Yeah. 

Langer, Bernhard  04:34

Yeah. And he was the captain too. So this was really for the Europeans a highlight like Wow, did we really do this? Why if we can beat them in America on a course they play all the time, we can beat them anyway. We can beat them on our soil. And that's what I'm saying, the whole outlook, the mental way we had approached it changed dramatically?

Mike Gonzalez  05:00

And then you go to the Belfry in 1989, which ended up in a tie. But Raymond Floyd made the mistake, I guess at the opening dinner or whatever of standing up, or for the opening ceremony, standing up and introducing the the American team as the 12 greatest players in the world? That didn't sit very well with the Europeans, I'm sure.

Langer, Bernhard  05:22

Now they weren't, you know, they sometimes showed video clips at those dinners before the event started, and everybody was there. And I remember once or twice where it was 90% about the Americans. And it was like, we're just a little sideshow. And yeah, that didn't sit well. And those comments from Raymond Floyd and, you know, some of those things that were said and done. That didn't come over well. Seve was a very proud man, and rightly so. Or Faldo or whoever. And when they were talking us down like that, that was not a good thing. And we told them, "Well, we'll show you with our golf clubs, what we can do, and you'll learn."

Mike Gonzalez  06:10

I think, in 1989, too, that was the start of a little bit of Seve/Azinger friction, which was caused by the scuffed ball incident where one refused to let the other change his ball out, I guess.

Langer, Bernhard  06:25

Yeah, I believe that was 1991 at Kiawah but it could have started earlier, who knows.

Mike Gonzalez  06:31

It was I think at 89 were Seve had the scuffed ball and Azinger wouldn't let him change his ball out and that sort of then carried over to 1991 when it was more the one-ball rule that they got called on but there was a lot that went on at Kiawah right. There was the team rides to the dinner where the Americans had a little bit of a rear end collision, one of their players got hurt. And, and that, you know, that probably factored into things because he wasn't able to play on the Sunday. Right?

Langer, Bernhard  07:05

Right. So yeah, we have a rule that if somebody gets hurt, you have a player in an envelope that will not play. Because you can't, you know, you don't lose the point if some guy can't play so somebody else will not play from the other team and you draw. You get half a point each and yeah, we were wondering whether he was really hurt or whether it was sort of an excuse, because he may not be playing well or whatever. That's the stuff that happens. When there's a lot of bad blood going on already and things that are going down that shouldn't be going down.

Mike Gonzalez  07:42

Yeah, that was of course named "The War by the Shore." Bruce plays a part in this because back in 1991, Pete Dye would have been rushing to get the Golf Course ready at Kiawah. At the same time, our home course where I live in Beaufort, South Carolina, Secession Golf Club was being built by Pete Dye as well. And he must have gotten a little distracted with trying to get this course ready for the Ryder Cup. And his son ended up doing some things the club ownership didn't like, and next thing you know, they fire him and Bruce Devlin comes in to finish the Golf Course.

Langer, Bernhard  08:21

Well everything makes somebody happy, right?

Mike Gonzalez  08:25

It all sort of worked out. So other things at Kiawah, obviously, the captain's there, Bernard Gallacher, who you mentioned earlier, and Dave Stockton, came down to the end. You know, that was the day that Mark Calcavecchia got off to a wonderful start. He admittedly was quite, I think disappointed would be an understatement terms of the way he finished his match. But you know, Stockton always gave him credit for setting the tone for the Americans early that day. It came down to you and Hale. One of the things we're going to ask Hale the next time we talk to him, because we didn't cover the Ryder Cup, was how did they find his drive on 18 where they found it?

Langer, Bernhard  09:13

Yeah, nobody really knows I think but I was surprised where it was. Because off the tee it was going off at a very different angle, you know, probably 20 to 40 yards further left and where it ended up. But I heard later on, many years later, that it hit somebody and bounced back or maybe they kicked it and threw it, I have no idea. But you know, it was kind of on the edge of the fairway and when it was never even close to where it should have been. But whether it was intentional or whether it was Rub of the Green, I will not know or maybe never know and it doesn't really matter now. It's already happened and it's in the books right?

Mike Gonzalez  10:01

Yeah, one of golf great mysteries. That's right. So it comes down to a putt. You've got a deciding putt on the 18th green. I mean, you've you felt a lot of pressure in your pro career up until that point, I'm sure you were in a lot of pressure packed situations, you'd already won at least one Masters. But Ryder Cups is a little different, isn't it in terms of you're competing for your continent, you're competing for your team? You probably feel a little bit of different pressure than if you're playing individually, don't you?

Langer, Bernhard  10:33

I would agree. Yeah, it is a little different. Because when you mess up as an individual in a normal tournament, it's you that suffers, and your caddie. Okay, that's the consequences. When you represent a team you play for your continent, or your country, for your Captain, for all the other guys that are involved. And it is a different kind of pressure. Absolutely. And, there's no doubt it's probably the most pressure putt I ever had in my life. But I was putting good the last three or four holes. I had to make some 5, 6, 7 footers to just stay in the game. And I was two down with four holes to go and I won two of the next three holes to be even. But I still had to win the last hole because a draw with Hale Irwin would have meant we lose. I had to win the match. And he made bogey and I had the six foot putt to make a par. But I felt fairly comfortable. I was trying not to think about the outcome, this and that, and just go through my routine. We did you know I had Peter Coleman caddy for me, a very famous, very good English professional caddy who was with me for 22 years. And we would always read putts together. And we both felt it was a left-edge putt. I had this six footer. We saw it roll by the hole, we thought it was left-edge. But on that left-edge line, there were two spike marks. And you're talking late in the day. Sunny, crusty greens. And they were two spike marks sticking up quite badly. So I said to Peter, well, if I hit those spike marks on that line, it can go anywhere. He said, Yeah, I saw those too. And we briefly discussed it. And we decided let's try and miss the spike marks and putt it straight, straight and firm, and hopefully it won't break as much. So again, I thought I hit a good putt. And that was kind of my reaction. If you see my reaction afterwards, it was pain and agony. But it was also a surprise, because I felt I made a good stroke. But it went over the right edge. It did break to the right like we originally thought it would. And yeah, the Americans won the Cup and the Europeans didn't and I felt terrible for our captain Bernhard Gallacher, I felt bad for the team. And I felt like I let everybody down. And I was not a happy camper for a while. But you know, that's how it is. You give it your best, you train for those situations and you hope you come through, but you may not come through all the time. And I always said in my whole life, if you give it 100% and you're well prepared, that's all you can ask of yourself. You may not always like the outcome. But it is what it is. I just felt bad for the whole team.

Mike Gonzalez  13:43

Well you come out of that putt, you come out of that disappointment, a crushing loss, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You go to the Mercedes German Masters the next week, and what do you do?

Langer, Bernhard  13:55

Yeah, that was very difficult to actually forget what happened, you know, the weekend before. A famous saying and golf is, "well, there's always another week." Yeah, there's always next week. Yeah, there was next week. But it turned out to be my own tournament. You know, like Arnold has the Bay Hill Classic and Jack has the Memorial, I had the German Masters. It was my own tournament in Stuttgart. And I arrived Monday, I think, whenever and had to do a press conference. And the first question was, well, you know, what does it feel like to miss that putt or talk us through it. Well, but that's, you know, that's normal. And I was confronted with it, you know, for quite a while and we still talk about it and that's okay, that's rightly so but I'm trying to make a point it's difficult to forget. So I'm playing the last hole of the tournament, the 72nd hole, and I have a 15-foot putt on the last hole, and I have to make it to get into a playoff. If I miss it, I'm done and somebody else wins. And you know what happens? Of course you think about what happened just a week ago. That's human right. So I tried to push those things, thoughts, out of my mind and try and focus on what was at hand and I was fortunate enough to coax it into the hole and get into a playoff and then I ended up winning the playoff. And so that was, you know, the best medicine for missing the putt a week earlier at the Ryder Cup. Obviously, there's no comparison between the two. One wasn't nearly as important as the other. But for a German to win his own tournament in his own country. There was a lot of pressure, there's no doubt about it. And I was thrilled to be able to win another German Masters in front of my home crowd. And, you know, help dim the pain a bit that happened a week earlier. 

Mike Gonzalez  16:07

I think if anybody wants to know a little bit about how tough and resilient and what a competitor you are, that's Exhibit A right there. You go back to the pressure of winning your own tournament and get it done.

Langer, Bernhard  16:21

Well, thanks.

Devlin, Bruce  16:24

So you lose again next year at the Belfry, Bernhard. Gallacher again the captain and Watson's team wins in 1993 at the Belfry. Any thoughts about that?

Langer, Bernhard  16:40

Yeah, the Americans played very well. There were some of us not playing at our very best. That might have been including myself. I was battling my swing a bit that week and didn't have the best week. But you know, it was a close, I think it was fairly close. Right? They didn't run away with it by a large margin. And obviously, they had a point to prove, you know, they had lost several Ryder Cups in a row and they felt a lot of pressure and the media was asking questions and you know what's going on with the U.S. team? So anyways, they played a great week and and took the Cup.

Mike Gonzalez  17:25

That was probably the last time the Americans won over there wasn't it?

Langer, Bernhard  17:30

I believe so. I think when we came back to Spain, was it in 1997?

Mike Gonzalez  17:34

Yes, at Valderama

Langer, Bernhard  17:37

Yeah, we won that one. And then 2001, that was one of my better Ryder Cups. I played really well that year at the Belfry again. Had some good pairings with Monty and I, we were undefeated and I was undefeated all week playing four matches so and I was already 44 years old or 45 years old, something like that. So yeah. Pretty neat week.

Mike Gonzalez  18:12

In 99. Were you Were you close in order to make the one at Brookline?

Langer, Bernhard  18:16

I was and it was funny you brought that up. It was maybe one of my most disappointing moments in my career. I will never forget I was maybe fourteenth in the standings. And 10 made it automatically and the Captain had two picks. It was Mark James and we were playing in Munich, the very last tournament, the BMW Championship and the Sunday after the tournament he was going to announce the two picks.  And the crazy thing is everybody I had talked to, the media, the caddies, the players, everybody thought I was gonna be one of the picks because I already had all this experience. I'd already played so many Ryder Cups and had a decent record in it and and all that and I wasn't playing my best golf but I was knocking on the door. I was fourteenth in the standings. So I was expecting to get an invite from Mark James. well, Mark James shows up about a minute before the press conference where he announces and he says Bernhard, I gotta tell you, I'm not picking you. And I was just in shock literally. I'm going "okay, well you're the Captain you know you make the decision, whatever you think is best." And he goes on picking who did he pick? I can't remember the two names now but he picked a Scottish player, he's an announcer now and he said I feel he's a better putter and a better, what is he saying a better  Was it Coltart?  Yeah. Andrew Coltart,  a better foursome player. And so I'm going well, you know, you're the Captain. I'm sure you thought about what you're doing and there's nothing I can do. I wish I was there. I would love to play. I had already packed my suitcase, I was ready to go. But, and then I watched the tournament a few weeks later, he never played Andrew Coltart, never played him until the singles. And the poor guy drew Tiger Woods in the singles. Now imagine if you've never played in a Ryder Cup and the Captain doesn't make you play at least once to get the feel of it, to feel the tension. Get a feel for the course and the competition. And I thought it was a very bad decision by Mark James. I have nothing against Mark James. But when I became Captain later, I said one thing I will do for sure, all my rookies will play. Everybody will play before the singles because it's too important. And I'd rather give up a half a point somewhere or a point earlier than throwing these guys, you know, into the fire having never competed in a Ryder Cup. So that was even more disappointing. It was disappointing not to be picked, but then to find out that he never played Andrew at all until he had to. That was even more disappointing.

Mike Gonzalez  21:37

I suspect Mark James is probably not on your Christmas card list.

Langer, Bernhard  21:43

You know, we've seen each other many times, and we talk but yeah, well, we may not be best of friends. We don't have much to do with each other anymore. But we did see each other on the European Tour and on the Champions Tour. And all of that I just didn't agree with his decisions. But, he's the captain. He can make whatever he wants. 

Mike Gonzalez  22:05

So let's go to Oakland Hills now, 2004. You don't get to swing a club. You don't get to hit a shot. You don't get to putt a putt. It's a little different deal, relying on your 12 guys to do all the talking.

Langer, Bernhard  22:18

Isn't it? I mean, that was the weirdest experience of all. Being at a professional golf tournament and not hitting one shot all week, I thought I was like a fish out of water. 

Devlin, Bruce  22:33

You did a good job. 

Langer, Bernhard  22:36

Thanks. I knew it was coming. I had played on the 10 other captains. I was paying attention what they did, you know played under John Jacobs, Tony Jacklin, Bernard Gallacher and Seve Ballesteros and Sam Torrance, so it was actually five captains. And I paid attention, I used whatever I liked, what they did, I dropped what I didn't like. And I brought in my own style little bit. I focused on communicating with my team. Far better, and hopefully better than anybody else had ever communicated. I wanted everybody to feel important and welcome and instill in them a confidence that they know they are the best 12 players that we have, even though I may only play eight of them the first morning and eight of them in the afternoon because that's all that can play. And four of them have to sit, whether they like it or not, but they knew it wasn't because they weren't good enough, they knew it was for the better of the team. And their time will come and they need to be ready and all of that. And we prayed a lot. You know, my wife and I prayed a lot, not necessarily to win, but to represent God in the best way we could as a Captain and as a team. And my Vice Captain Anders Forsbrand, we prayed every morning over the decisions we would make, who to play with whom and when and all that kind of stuff. And so a lot of it was, going into the year prior, I talked to Franz Beckenbauer, who was maybe the best German soccer player ever. And then he was the coach for Bayern Munich. He became the coach for the German national team. And I said you know "what, what do you do to instill team feelings and stuff because I have 12 individuals that try to beat each other brains out every week. And now I have to make them into a team." Yeah, I wanted to pull for each other. I want them to really be excited but not to feel the pressure of the moment ,just to be thrilled to be there and all that kind of stuff. You know, there's a lot going on, a lot to learn. And I did my homework and I was thrilled, how the team came together and, you know, the opportunity we had. And we treated the spectators well. And we played great golf. Far more importantly, the unique thing is, we won every single session, which usually doesn't happen. You know, we  won the foursomes, the four-balls, the four-balls, the foursomes and the individuals on Sunday. All five sessions where we made more points than the Americans. And what's even more astonishing, on American soil, in Detroit ,at Oakland Hills Country Club. So that was truly an historic victory to win by that margin, you know, on foreign soil. So it was a magical week. Many great memories. I don't want to tell any stories that happened in the locker room because they belong in the locker room. They don't belong anywhere else. But we had a great time from the very first day we landed to the day we left. And it was truly magical.

Mike Gonzalez  26:20

Yeah, we have heard a few locker room stories, by the way. And first off 

Langer, Bernhard  26:25

Okay, not from me. 

Mike Gonzalez  26:26

The first guy to tell 'em was Lanny Wadkins, Bruce, I know that. So Bernard, looking back on this Ryder Cup experience, as I said, when we first started talking about this sort of a transformative time for the history of the Ryder Cup, one of the things I've always thought about and of course, as an American, obviously, our allegiance is a little different in terms of who were rooting for, but, one of the things that, at least I believe, is the way you guys grew up. On the European Tour, the challenges you had the camaraderie, though, that I think was more present than it was with the Americans. It  just seems like you guys were better prepared, mentally, and for all forms of play, to bond together as a team and perform well, in this kind of competition versus the way the Americans, particularly today. And I'm talking about a year when if the talent is equal, I'm always going to give the edge to the European team.

Langer, Bernhard  27:30

Well, it's, you know, many people have discussed this phenomenon or whatever, and there's different thoughts. Growing up in Europe, I mean, let's face it, the French don't like the Germans and the Germans don't like the Austrians, or the Brits, or nobody really gets along, when you look at history, right? There's been a lot of conflict. They're trying to have the European Union, and that didn't even work. You know, we had Brexit with England leaving  or Great Britain. So there's constant, continuous uproar and problems and it's not like we all love each other over there, it's not the case. So looking at it, from that standpoint, you would think the Americans would be much more united or proud of, or whatever you call it to represent their one flag and their one country because that's truly who they represent. Well, we as Europe, you know, I'm German, I'm representing Europe, yes. But then you have the French and the Spanish and Swedish and Italian and Irish and the Scottish and English and they don't get along, the Irish and Scottish and English don't always get along. So, you know, why are we more united playing and representing Europe than America is representing America? Makes no sense to me that part. But there is sort of the underdog mentality or used to be where, you know, the Americans were supposed to be better and we are not as good. We're gonna show 'em, you know, we're gonna show that we can compete. But that doesn't work anymore, either. Because we're not the underdogs anymore. We've won more right cubs in the last 20 or 30 years than the Americans had. So I'm not sure what the answer is, but we do enjoy coming together. That's for sure. I just saw it again this weekend when we played the World Champions Cup, the inaugural World Champions Cup on the Champions Tour. There were six of us representing Europe and we finished last but we had a blast. We had such a good time in the team room and just getting to hang out with each other. You know, we didn't play the best of golf We got beat but so I'm not sure what the answer is exactly. I don't think it is what a lot of people think it is. Some of us had tougher upbringings. But nowadays, many of our Ryder Cup players have actually gone to college in America like Aberg, for instance. Right. And, and many of the others, so they have been accustomed to the American way of life, and they don't play golf any different than the Americans do, who go to the same colleges and the same tournaments, and similar upbringing. Many of us in the old days were caddies like Seve and myself. Well, that doesn't exist as much anymore, either. So I really can't answer the question very well. Not sure there's any secret to that, why Europe has been so successful in the Ryder Cup lately. But it certainly means a great deal to Europeans to compete. But so it does to the Americans, I think. I see a lot of pride in their faces when  they play for the U.S. flag.

Mike Gonzalez  31:22

Well, it's sure come a long way in 42 years, hasn't it?

Langer, Bernhard  31:26

Yes, it has. And that's a wonderful thing. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez  31:29

Well, you've been very generous with your time today. Obviously, to our listeners, their still anxious to hear about what could be your greatest legacy, which is your Champions Tour career, where just from last time when we visited, we had to update your number by three more wins. And hopefully the next time we get together, we'll have to update our statistics again.

Langer, Bernhard  31:52

Well, that would be nice. But we'll see. I'm gonna enjoy a little bit of time off here soon and yeah, hopefully we will be talking again real soon. Thank you for your time. It was pleasure being with you, 

Devlin, Bruce  32:05

Thank you Bernhard.

Mike Gonzalez  32:06

Thank you for listening to another episode of FORE the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word and tell your friends. Until we tee it up again, FORE the Good of the Game, so long everybody.

Music playing  32:25